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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 10:13 am 
Dragon
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Beholder King wrote:
...
In real life reasons, nobody who's casting a new Doctor is going to count that one simple (and lame) sub-sub-sub plot that will probaby be all but forgotten in a year or so except by the very very nerdy like us. ... They won't bother going back over all the old stories to see if there's an episode where he sort of half-regenerated and try to explain it.
...
You won't see any publicity material with David Tennat's face printed twice amongst all the other actors. He is simply the 10th Doctor.
While I agree with your conclusion that Tennant is simply the 10th Doctor, I don't entirely buy your argument that none of the writers will remember the abortive regeneration. After all, can't they be counted among "the very very nerdy"? :) And regenerations are always a big deal in the Whoniverse (unless I'm much mistaken). Besides, they know how... err... enthusiastic the fans can get (as I once heard Tennant phrase it), and they can't be unaware of conversations like this.

On the other hand, we've all been disappointed by script-writing decisions before, so I wouldn't put it past them to do it to me on this count. At least now I know I won't be the only one cringing if the 13th Doctor arrives without any mention at all of extra regenerations having been granted somehow.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 11:48 am 
Minotaur
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RTD stated he didn't believe Ten used up a regeneration as the process wasn't completed. So, well, there. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:22 pm 
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mrfranklin wrote:
At least now I know I won't be the only one cringing if the 13th Doctor arrives without any mention at all of extra regenerations having been granted somehow.


As was stated in the show itself, he didn't regenerate. He started to but the energy aborted, healed him and transferred to his hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:57 pm 
Dragon
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Beholder King wrote:
As was stated in the show itself, he didn't regenerate. He started to but the energy aborted, healed him and transferred to his hand.
Understood. But my point is, just because he didn't regenerate doesn't necessarily mean he didn't use a regeneration. The way I interpreted the Doctor's own explanation was that the remaining energy of the aborted regeneration went into the hand (instead of causing him to become his next incarnation), not that the full energy of a regeneration was never spent. Thus, his 10th regeneration resulted in the Doctor 10.2 instead of in the 11th Doctor. Does that make sense?

Or is it your contention that all the energy that created 10.2 was just part of a regeneration instead of a whole one? So it was kind of like starting to yawn, but getting startled in the middle, and then you still need to yawn?

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:59 pm 
Dragon
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The TARDIS Traveller wrote:
RTD stated he didn't believe Ten used up a regeneration as the process wasn't completed. So, well, there. :P
Oh. Just saw this after replying to Rich. :oops: I guess if RTD has said that, then it's "official" - it was an interrupted yawn. How bogus...

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:23 pm 
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mrfranklin wrote:
The TARDIS Traveller wrote:
I guess if RTD has said that, then it's "official" - it was an interrupted yawn. How bogus...


I thought putting the regeneration in the cliffhanger between episodes was a cheap gag entirely. Like a desperate ploy to frighten the viewers.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:56 am 
Minotaur
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Kept the press going though. Personally I thought it was quite a brilliant cliffhanger.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:33 pm 
Kobold
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The TARDIS Traveller wrote:
Kept the press going though. Personally I thought it was quite a brilliant cliffhanger.

Or it would have been, if (at least here in the states) they hadn't run the previews for next week during the credits, showing the Doctor running around just fine.
It never ceases to amaze me when shows blow their own cliffhangers that way. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:50 pm 
Puce Guardian
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RTD said he counted as a regeneration, I heard (but I never saw the article)- at least in Next Doctor, the Doctor only seemed to think there was two regenerations left.

The Mighty Moff has final say tho, as it's his baby in 2010 and the issue cant be resolved before then ... now if RTD were to stay in charge, I would take any statement to the press that it doesnt use up a regeneration as a sign than in an already written but not finished ep, we would see consequences meaning it does use one, as that's how he likes to bait reporters for ratings :frogwink: - tho most of us are on to him by now.

The more I think about it, the more I hope it does, as it increases the likelyhood that Moffat is the one in charge of figuring out what happens when the Doctor uses up all his lives, and he's creative, smart, and likely to find a solution to make the geeky heart happy :wink: :smart:

But it still is one of those cloudy issues that we can debate about for a few years till they prove us all wrong with their own idea of what happened.

(Also I'd make a thread and do a little dance to say 'The forum is back! The forum is back!- but since no one can read those threads unless they already know it's back ... well, not much point. But much thanks to Henry Von Stanton for fixing the internet for us, and for Hilary for poking him in the elbow till he complied)


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:29 am 
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mrfranklin wrote:
Beholder King wrote:
As was stated in the show itself, he didn't regenerate. He started to but the energy aborted, healed him and transferred to his hand.
Understood. But my point is, just because he didn't regenerate doesn't necessarily mean he didn't use a regeneration. The way I interpreted the Doctor's own explanation was that the remaining energy of the aborted regeneration went into the hand (instead of causing him to become his next incarnation), not that the full energy of a regeneration was never spent. Thus, his 10th regeneration resulted in the Doctor 10.2 instead of in the 11th Doctor. Does that make sense?

Or is it your contention that all the energy that created 10.2 was just part of a regeneration instead of a whole one? So it was kind of like starting to yawn, but getting startled in the middle, and then you still need to yawn?


I believe it was the excess energy from the hand, since it came from the process of the 10th regeneration, was used to heal the doctor and abort the 11th regeneration and the partial 11th regen went into the hand which in turn created DoctorDonna and 9.5. I say 9.5 because 10 mentions the fact that 9.5 is himself when Rose first met him. A combination of 9, Donna, and 10. God I love this show lol


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:19 pm 
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What I believe they said was he used his regeneration to heal himself, but didnt want to change - who wants to change- so fed the excess energy into the hand, where it sat till Donna touched it and triggered the first DoctorDonna change into a nekkedDoctor with Donna attitude. Then Donna got zapped and regenerated into DonnaDoctor, Donna attitude with Doctor know how.

That leaves us with ..ah, well, pretty much the yawn theory - does it count as a yawn or not, if you feed off some of the yawn before showing your tonsils?


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Couple theories I've found floating around that I wanted to throw out for reaction and discussion. To my knowledge, none of it's been mentioned in the show, it's all just fan speculation.

1) Those in the higher-ups of Gallifreyan government can amend biodata in order to confiscate or transfer incarnations as punishment. It's been suggested that they can also use this to simply give a Time Lord more incarnations and that they may have done so to the Doctor (as well as other Time Lords) in the Time War. Not that it helped in the long run.

2) With the destruction of the Matrix (along with Gallifrey) the Doctors is no longer limited in the amount of times he's able to regenerate. Admittedly, I'm not terribly familiar with details on the Matrix, just sort of a generl knowlege of what it is so if you can debunk this one be my guest.

I would also like to hear some other theories if you got 'em!

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 8:57 pm 
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The Time Lords can confer regenerations. It's possible that this ability is limited to genetically altering a non-Gallifreyan body into a Gallifreyan one. I don't know if they can add regenerations to a Gallifreyan body.
Recall that in "The Five Doctors," they offer the Master (then occupying the body of Tremas of Traken) a new cycle of regenerations in exchange for helping the Doctors.
Later, in "Mark of the Rani," he 'borrows' a chemical from the Rani and promises to keep it close to his heartS. Plural. Just like a Time Lord. Either he's a full-blooded Gallifreyan again, or the writers goofed. The one is just as likely as the other, as far as I'm concerned.
(If he was able to regenerate again, that might explain some of the "did he survive or didn't he" endings from the later 80s. This would imply that like Romana, he has more control over the regeneration process than the Doctor does. That is, he could make each new regeneration look like Anthony Ainley.)
On the other hand, gaining the ability to regenerate didn't work out so well for Mawdryn and his crew. So maybe it's a little more complicated.
And of course, if the Master got more regenerations, he apparently used them all up again by the time of the movie, where he is again reduced to stealing a body to survive.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:09 pm 
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As far as the Master goes, we don't how many hearts Trakken bodies have, he could have had 2 or 3, and no, he wasnt granted any regenerations in the Five Doctors.

The body the Master was in had never had a regeneration, so if it was altered (I always picture genetic surgery to transfer some gallifreyian dna into the body) it would have the full cycle of regenerations yet to go, of course.

Since it's been mentioned as a physical limitation, that the body just never survives a 13th regeneration, the 13th regeneration always fails, I cant see some legal manouvers changing that, any more than our president and Congress and pass a special law saying certain people, in recognition for saving the planet, dont have get old.

Plus I want some really geeky fun solution, not 'oh, it doesnt apply to you anyway, didnt we tell you?' answer, as that feels like a bit of a cop out to me. The Doctor has mentioned he's only got 13 lives, 12 regenerations, and why ruin the drama after 30 plus season/series, 45yrs and counting, build up?


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 Post subject: Re: Next Doctor Discussion (Spoilers)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:14 pm 
Kobold
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Yes, well, the Master is just... sneaky. I think he's more Cockroach than Time Lord at this point, lol.

For as mutable as Time Lord physiology tends to be, I would almost say that the writters could come up with just about anything if they really needed to have a reason for more regenerations and it would be generally accepted among the fandom so long as it wasn't too terribly hokey.

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