3358 The Muse Steps Up
on June 29, 2020
Chapter: Ranna's Fulcrum
Characters: Ben of the Fields, Ch'Thier Goddess of Health and Purity, Lady Marion of Heatherdale, Ranna Goddess of Chaos and Cruelty
Location: Elegrost Fields
Happy Pride Month everyone!
I…have no words.
Wow.
A goddess whose understanding of herself was *corrupted by the paparazzi and the tabloids*, and the force of her belief shaped her, and thus, reality around her.
I’m…I’m speechless, Rich. Wow.
I haven’t even begun to process the significance of the last panel. I’m still stuck on the philosophical ramifications of the earlier ones!
I dearly hope Trevor or Leland can hear this conversation. It needs a firsthand account for the history books!
You might enjoy Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.
And I love this! It brings humanity to the gods… in a manner of speaking. I also like as Ranna is coming to learn this stuff she is healing up.
Read something long ago that implied that Gods are just as much formed in their followers’ image as the followers are formed in Theirs
Just as one way to ‘kill’ a God is to forget them: if there is no one left who follows or even remembers them, they are effectively dead
> You might enjoy Small Gods by Terry Pratchett.
Oh, quite familiar with it, and did enjoy it, but thank you!
> Iām still stuck on the philosophical ramifications of the earlier ones!
What I find most interesting about her argument is that, despite the vehemence of her abstract in the last strip, nothing Marion has said *directly* refutes "The Tao of YAFGC"; she’s just packed those ideas into a different, albeit less inherently meaningful, context.
t!
> nothing Marion has said *directly* refutes "The Tao of YAFGC"
Indeed. I find it very interesting, and very familiar indeed, that it was mortal fear of the superliminal — of the uncontrolled, the wild, the things that lay beyond the circle of firelight, so to speak — that transformed chaos into "evil," in Ch’Thier’s worshipper’s eyes. How very human, really — apologies for the humanocentric language — to demonize the wild, because it’s scarier, less safe, less predictable than the firelight’s circle of imagined environmental control.
This is some absolutely Campbell-level mythology here…told between the lines of the main story. How utterly Rich. I…I just…wow.
Also I kind of really love the sentence, "There’s nothing Just about Chaos."
t!
Good and Evil aren’t really subjective
{Edit: Yes they totally are, as any knowledge of even a little bit of history will prove.}
, some things are objectively evil (stealing, murder, fraud, adultery, etc) and some things are objectively good (charity, self-sacrifice, justice, humility, etc)
{Edit: This is a complete misunderstanding of Human morality.}
To say that morality is subjective would essentially be saying that there are justifications for evils such as Rape, or that we have no obligation to help others
{Edit: This is one of the wrongest statements I’ve ever seen written in the comments of YAFGC. And Guesticus talks a LOT.}
If you’re finding that your participation in a long and pointless argument which began from a total inability to understand what today’s strip was trying to say is missing, it’s because I have deleted all but the original post because all sides of this argument made me angry.
I only left the original post here to remind me that the stupid argument existed at all. Please do not feed this troll. I will delete it, at least until it’s far back enough in YAFGC’s archives that I no longer give a shit.
Bless you for that.
t!
Having been part of that argument, sorry about that. Making you angry certainly wasn’t my intention.
Ah s’okay Wylf, you were on the side I was less angry with. But there’s just no arguing with some people.
How am I a Troll?
Cause I make a point that disagree with yours?
You’d honestly shut down debate about the nature of morality?
This very comic strip is the answer to your June 29 post, Titan. Its core spell (an inadequate word for what is happening, but it must serve) is that if you remove good and evil, you remove the core conflict. Change the definitions, you change the drivers of reality and "balance" will come naturally as everyone can be "themeselves." That’s the underlying flow here.
If that philosophical premise is accepted, arguments about good and evil are the problem. Note the role of that C’thierite sermon in the strip, illustrating this very idea.
I’m not saying that this belief system is true, false, smart, or dumb. I’m saying that’s what I’m being shown.
Given that, whether you find this strip profound of underwhelming, the author’s reaction to discussion of good and evil in the comments is… about what I’d expect from the clues in front of me.
Does Rich’s message make more sense now?
No
Cause Rich didn’t give any example of how good and evil "don’t really exist", he just gave a form of political propaganda
Nothing in the comic actually counters my original point
Hey, why the F did you edit my original comment.
You didn’t even counter my points, you basically just went "NUH-UH"
The last three ‘questions’ you ask were all answered on June 29, 2020, at 9:37 am.
Asking them *hours* later is what makes you a troll.
t!
I could believe that the lengthy delay in response is due to Titan’s location on the globe wherever that may be.
[UPDATE: Australia apparently.]
I called him a Troll because his arguments were reactive, deaf and childishly hostile.
“Hey, why the F did you edit my original comment.”
Because it’s idiotic.
That wasn’t a debate, don’t flatter yourself.
Huh, weird.
When I first read the comic the discussion just started and it just looked like a discussion about absolute vs relative morality, even if Titan seemed overly hostile.
Did it further escalate? Or were the arguments getting ..distasteful?
Not wanting to restart the discussion, I just wish to understand your point here.
Especially since absolute morality is often paired with religion and I have been told that religion is a topic wich many cultures to not discuss in open conversation, usually.
Thank you for your time and have a good day. =)
Yeah well it started on rather shaky, barely intellectual grounds and very quickly got to ear-stuffing and heel-digging. The final straw was our charming "Titan" telling everyone else to ‘enjoy being stupid’. I nuked that crap from my site and I don’t want to see it again.
I said that to 1 guy, and that was after repeatedly defining what the Humility when he kept claiming that the definition of depression was an extreme for of Humility
Are you looking to get banned? Because I’ll ban your whiney little ass. Ask Guesticus.
And what exactly have I done that’s ban worthy?
That. Bye-bye.
Questioning you and standing up for myself is ban worthy?
Not at all. Behaving like a spoiled child and then constantly shrieking ‘foul’ and clogging my comic discussion pages with demands that we all ‘look at you! look at you!’ gets you banned from my site. Piss off.
====Titan is officially banned====
For the record everyone else, I don’t mind being disagreed with. If you think I’m wrong about something, tell me. Just do it politely and calmly and we can discuss our sides rationally and reasonably. I wasn’t even involved in the discussion I deleted. I woke up to find that Titan had filled my comments page with circular, screaming, heel-digging crap and finished off by insulting people. Naturally he got defensive when I ended it, as you can see, and I had to boot him.
I think that’s totally fair, don’t you?
I choose to answer your question, which I do not believe was entirely rhetorical.
I’ve been accused (indirectly) of being your sycophant in this forum on one occasion, which anyone who knew us back in our 20s would find *hilarious* I’m sure.
So, for the record:
> I think thatās totally fair, donāt you?
I do.
You provided arguments for your initial decision to moderate – which you’ve been explicit in the past is *not* something you ever *want* to do, and so is never done without excellent reason.
Your explanation was ignored. Of course it was. The whole problem arose from one party simply not listening; why should anything change now, right?
So demands for justification were issued. Which you had already addressed, clearly, but to no avail.
Then the Victim card was played – again, of course it was. When you refuse to acknowledge even the *possibility* you might not be Divinely, Ineffably Right In All Things, no counter-argument is able to penetrate your feeble yet concretised mind, and thus the only possible out for you is to claim, hoping to convince yourself, that you are being targeted unfairly.
(note that this maps perfectly onto the behaviour of the parasite Pesticus Giveitaresticus; textbook pathology)
You asserted your authority. You tried reason. Neither worked. You had no recourse but to threaten.
The sensible response at that point, without even having to admit wrongdoing, would have been to just SHUT UP – but of course this was never, ever going to happen. So you had to follow up on your threat.
Unlike those who’ve been banned from here, YOU try to be honest with yourself, critically evaluating your behaviour instead of throwing childish tantrums, and so you may, at some point, wonder if you jumped the gun in this case. If so, I advise you to compare the above tantrums to how Wylf replied.
*Wylf* is an adult.
t!
Thank you t! Much appreciated. š And yeah, you being my sycophant /is/ an hilarious notion!! Heheh
If any two people can show that it’s possible to be VERY different and also in synch in some mysterious way, it’s you and I in our 20’s. I feel we’ve drifted somewhat closer alike in our dotage which simply serves to make our friendship that much easier and firmer.
On a totally unrelated note: Listened to a radio interview with the guy who now plays Elmo on Sesame street. He described the audition process of how he got his job with Henson studios as a puppeteer. And my thought was “sonovabitch, I could have DONE THAT! Why did I stick it out with cartoons!!”
-R
> I feel weāve drifted somewhat closer alike in our dotage
All of that, yes.
> And my thought was āsonovabitch, I could have DONE THAT! Why did I stick it out with cartoons!!ā
That way lies madness, mon ami. Don’t do that to yourself.
Besides, you have YAFGC. No small thing. At all.
And all yours, too.
t!
Moderated again!
Fourth time in a month.
Sonofabitch.
t!
Can I ask a question? How could the creator of an original (not completely, but as it’s shown that things work different here than D&D original enough) work of art be wrong unless something new directly contradicts the past of said original work?
It’s about what I’m saying in the comic I think. The message I’m putting across -which one supposes reflects my true beliefs (and I shan’t argue, but I don’t actually sit and ponder the nature of morality)- is that the concepts of "good" and "evil" are man-made, don’t exist in the natural world, and that they can and do change depending on society and change with time.
Titan was in adamant reactive disagreement with the idea that his present ideas of what’s good and evil aren’t absolute and reflect how things are and always have been for everyone everywhere at all times. Which is pure and simple egocentric bullshit. But he wouldn’t hear of that.
So no, nobody can say that I’m ‘wrong’ in the context of YAFGC and the world I’ve created. Even if I contradict myself, it’s my right. But the argument stemmed from without.
Sister? Whaaaaaaaaaaaa*? (Brain explodes)
I knew there was more to Marion than her being a pretty Elf lady. Didn’t expect this, but not disappointed.
Agreed. I expected her to be something like the first elf or such.
I think Ranna lost her horns in her last panel
She did. She’s slowly "de-growing" them over all the panels she’s been visible in, transforming back into her more humanlike appearance, no doubt in part because of what Marion is telling her š
Figured it was because she was ‘calming down’, at the same time her hair was growing back
Woah, you’re right! Cool!
A bit sad about her losing horns. I like horns. They look cool!
Literally remembering herself. It’s beautiful.
Did not expect that twist.
The thing about Ranna being affected by belief reminds me of Other Rich’s D&D Comic, specifically Thor’s explanation of what happened to Odin here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1145.html
And Thor used to be a ginger before that comic book came out.
No, Thor was a redhead until Marvel made him blonde. That comic just continued his blondeness.
Originally Thor also had a beard you could lose a den of badgers in as well…
Did you just say "No" and then immediately explain the same thing?
Prairie Son was also paraphrasing something Thor actually said in OotS. The comic right before the linked one, in fact.
*facepalm* Ive been reading both of these for years and only now do i realize the author is the same person..
*is not* (can you even edit these?)
Hmm, why is Ranna *the* Goddess of Evil (implying all evil stems from her, including Lolth) and Ch’Thier *a* Goddess of Good (implying she’s one of many)?
Slip of the fingers or is there more to it?
Ranna’s a jealous goddess. "My sentimental fool of a sister is content to be one of many gods of good. But let another god of evil show their face around here, and I’ll EAT ’em!!!"
Good ( š ) point
It amuses me that the goddess of chaos apparently used to be "the rational one". š
I guess a goddes of order could easily fall prey to a obsessive-compulsive disorder or other irrational extremes.
Not sure what type of irrational behaviour chaos could lead to, but there’s probably something as well.
Which doesn’t say a lot about Ch’Thier š
Well, it is said that Chaos contains everything, including order.
Just watch a TV screen filled with static, looks random but you will start seeming patterns in it.
Eh, that’s probably more because human brains are quite literally wired for pattern recognition and less because there are actually patterns. Same reason why we often see shapes in clouds, it’s just how we as a species work. We see patterns, even if there aren’t any.
That said, if you view Chaos as just general randomness then yeah, order is a theoretical possibility š
Well, I didn’t see that coming.
What the heck? This judge war is just going to end by talking?
Huge war curse autocorrect
Oh ye of little faith…
.
boom tish
.
Never underestimate Mr. Morris…
Oh wow, they totally are the White and Black Guardians from Dr Who lol. I suspect they’re going to get a better fate than being eat em by Reapers.
Do you mean extended stuff like audio strories and novels? I don’t really remember them to be that similar to this on TV.
I think he means my version from "The Ten Doctors" over at "Rich’s Comix Blog" (http://www.comics.shipsinker.com)
Yeah, sorry, I figured everybody here was familiar with that story. My bad lol
So this is La Pucelle? Ch’Thier is Poitrene and Ranna is Calamity?
I doubt that to be the source for this comic so whom did these two rip of?
Anyway I love La Pucelle so I’m alwas happy to se it. Nobody of the main cast quite reaches Prier though.
No idea what you’re referring to. I didn’t intentionally ‘rip anyone off’ except to use the old trope of Law vs Chaos / Good vs Evil.
Yes rip off seems a bit strong and negative, it would be better to ask where that trope originated.
There are two twin forces, one of them inspiring worship that leads to institutionalised and uniformised views on their supposed nature. In this uniformised views the force that emodies Chaos is turned into a force of evil, the other is seen as an embodiment of goodness, which in turn changes their true nature to reflect the view of the religion and leads them becoming mortal enemies despite not having been antagonistic originally.
Also the existence of a mysterious mediator interested in the balance of the forces.
While the details are different and I don’t know yet if in this story Ch’Thier also has been influenced by her worshippers, the similarities seems specific enough that the inspiration for both stories could have been the same.
I just would have been interested what this inspiration may have been.
Had to look up "La Pucelle" reference because I couldn’t understand what Joan of Arc had to do with Ranna & Ch’Thier, especially since I thought I’d covered that with Jone:Half-Orc. But I see now that you’re referring to a Japanese video game. I am so old.
But this new reply has me confused again. Are you asking from what other show/film/play/book/video game I was inspired to create the twin godesses of law/chaos? Or are you asking what the backstory for Ranna and Ch’Thier is? Because if it’s backstory you want, strap in. We’re going for a ride…..
The background of the main deities of the game is like mentioned before. So it’s not just the presence of a goddes of chaos and a goddes of law.
The way the two goddesses and the worshippers relate to each other and how the religion shaped the gods rather than the other way around reminded me of La Pucelle.
I assumed that many aspects of the story of La Pucelle did not originate from the minds of it’s development studio because it’s quite different from all they’ve shown in their other games. So I would have liked to know the source for them.
Since I can’t ask them for their sources, this was oddly similar, and I assumed you weren’t influenced by a 20 year old niche game, I was just curious if the shared details could have been caused by a single source of inspiration for both stories.
But If there is no single inspiration for these things, the similarities are coincidental and I don’t really wanna know anything. I’ll see it as it plays out anyway.
A ride! I love rides like that! *finds a seat on the bus and puts on her seat-belt* I brought snacks, anyone want some?
well that’s a fucking bombshell if ever i saw one, she just dropped that knowledge on them fools and said "bitch I’m your aunt".
Heheh, dumb thing is, they should know that already, shouldn’t they?
seriously?
Sparrow drops an F-bomb, and here’s pops the comment, no problem, whereas something I wrote recently spent a few days in Moderation Limbo for (I can only presume) namedropping an award-winning Canadian singer-songwriter?
t!
Nah I had to release this one too. I just happened to be around when Sparrow wrote it.
this is the internet, censorship shouldn’t be a thing. we’re all adults here, as long as nobody is being actively toxic and derogatory I think we should all be fine. he probably just hadn’t gotten around to approving your comment, the trouble with moderator approved comments is it requires a moderator to be there and see it. Rich may have many eyes, but you can only look in so many directions before you end up cross eyed.
Thanks for your keen insight.
Rich already said that, TWO DAYS AGO.
t!
do I look like the type of person who reads? obviously I’m a martial class and int is my dump stat. I leave the reading to our dragonborn song singer, I just focus on squishing the zombies and breaking the robots. if you want a nerdy reader type you’ll have to talk to my goblin alchemist character.
It took me a significant time to realise that Sparrow is a character you play on this forum. I guess part of it is that internet fora already have ‘real’ people who are abrasive, puerile, and unintelligent – or, more accurately, *anti*-intelligent – so there was no reason to assume Sparrow represented anything other than a genuine viewpoint. Also, I have trouble imagining anyone *wanting* to play such a character; in any campaign worth playing, such a personality would be a liability, the way Sparrow is on this forum.
t!
I’m heavily reminded of how western popular culture (american movies, duh) treats the old egyptian gods. Most of the time "Set" or "Seth" is just depicted as the god of evil, even though the old egyptians saw this entity in a way more ambivalent way. If I remember correctly as the embodiment of chaos with both positive and (yeah a lot of but not limited to) negative traits.
Very impressive twist of the story indeed! Thumbs up! š
Set, also known as Seth and Suetekh, was the Egyptian god of war, chaos and storms, brother of Osiris, Isis, and Horus the Elder, uncle to Horus the Younger, and brother-husband to Nephthys.
He was also the God who saved Ra from Apophis so ensured the sun would rise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LGu1sOvxYs this is all i got to say
*highfives and hands you a cookie* well done
Well… that was unexpected.
All of it.
My english is not so good to start an argument about these argiments :O
@Richard
After years of reading I felt I just had to say : WOW ! š
And are you sure that we are not in the same gaming circles ? I have lost track of how many times I have had to do that speech as a DM !
Love the whole believe influencing goddesses/gods thing it’s so intuitively RIGHT that I can’t even remember if I somehow had that head canon for my own fantasy settings before reading Small Gods or not. It’s just makes so much obvious sense – I love to see it at work here as well. Poor Ranna (to some degree) nothing but the victim of corporate propaganda so to speak.
Still the belief of her followers stands as it is and she HAS DONE so much gruesome stuff, I’m not sure if knowing this will change anything for her or the story development – classical tragedy stuff.
Laso – didn’t see that last panel coming.
Belief feeding on action feeding on belief, until it gets to the point of which came first: belief or action?
Unless you have someone on the ‘outside’ who was there from the start (like Lady Marion), one may never really know (sort of like the whole ‘Hatfield vs. McCoy’ feud: it’s been going on so long no one from either side remembers how it started, or why)
The whole thing about Gods feeding on and being shaped by the belief of their followers definitely predates Pratchett. It goes back at *least* to Fritz Leiber’s famous Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser series, from the ’40s/’50s, which Pratchett was a fan of–the first Discworld story included a meeting with a parody of F&tGM.
1. It’s funny that anger helps Ranna to regenerate.
2. The speech bubble with the zigzag lines in the 2nd panel is kind of weird.
3. Ch’Thier & Ranna are twins.
4. Marion is their aunt.
#2 is just Rich’s way of editing, from the looks of it, he was originally going to have the Twins shouting her name, and then changed His mind to it being a ‘softer’ question (personally feel the shout would have been better)
Nothing so artistically sophisticated. I simply forgot to erase the rough lettering before I posted the strip. A mistake I’ve made a few times over the course of YAFGC.
Yes, and like with the characters, its kinda like your trademark (saying that in a positive way)
Well, crap. I so thought it was going to be Anna.
But this is infinitely better.
Any plans to ever do a pre-history of YAFGC? It’s no secret that a few of the characters are references to old D&D campaigns, but it would be fascinating to a definitive source on how those ideas/people were changed into the comic.
I had to re-read your comment a couple of times to figure out how to answer it. I’m clearly having one-of-those-days.
By a pre-history of YAFGC do you mean… like a description of my process and thoughts and things I put together in my gaming and storytelling world before YAFGC that helped inspire it?
Or do you mean a super flashback series that describes the origins of all these gods and situations in-world?
If you mean the former, I’ve got a lot of the material around, I just don’t know what kind of platform would be a good place to discuss it.
If you mean the latter, I’ve got the whole world -as far as I’ve figured it out anyway- all mapped out in a mega document which I refer to as the YAFGC Silmarillion. It’s basically a time-line with everything plotted out. Both Rancourt and t! have seen it (or at least, versions of it that existed when they were given access), it’s a very large file and has spinoff and supplementary timelines that go with it. It’s a continuous work-in-progress that someday will…. I guess get forgotten… deleted or lost when all my hard drives and things die and decay. *shrug* Unless one of my kids shows an interest and tries to archive it all.
In the (hopefully far) future when you decide to end the story, you really need to publish the YAFGC Silmarillion. It would be a fascinating read.
It might actually be better to publish it in wiki format – that way it can remain a work-in-progress.
YAFGC is one of those things that just lives on its own. I don’t think I’d ever decide to /end/ it. Someday I’ll have to stop telling its stories, either because I’m no longer physically or mentally able to or because I’m just dead. But I’ve set in motion a world that spins in its own heaven, lives in its own universe, whether you’re there to read it, or I’m here to draw it… or not.
No, YAFGC will never die. It’s up to others to us to pop open its tupperware lid to see how its progressed while we weren’t looking.
My son, Alex, has recently taken quite an interest and has been drawing his own little 8 year old rendition of it. He’s done strips with Bob and Cap’n Fang and created his own Beholder character. I’ve promised the kids that if they ever want to draw and write their own YAFGC strips I’d happily post them here for you all to see and enjoy.
And someday maybe you’ll be reading Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic: By Alexander Morris. Or somebody else. For now I’m playing in the sandbox and I’ve got the cardboard crown on. But it’ll fit anyone’s head really. And some of my favorite things have been YAFGC fanfics. YAFGC FAN FICS!!!! They exist. I love that.
—-
As for publishing the Silmarillion, I’m reluctant to do that for the same reason I’m reluctant to hand over the DMG and Monster Manual to new D&D players. If you know too much of what’s written there you can start telling the DM all the ways he did it wrong. The YAFGC Silmarillion is meant to be a plastic stretchy note book for my reference, none of it is written in stone. In fact, I rather detest the way I’ve divided some of the historical “Ages” and I’m working on a way to fix it in world.
That being said, I’ve thought about formats for it. As a series of books written out much more comprehensively than my silly shorthand broken sentences, a book per age maybe… and themed ones like I’ve got on my hard drive. Fully illustrated with parody portraits and short strips illustrating events in history. Y’know… the “YAFGC Time Line of Elegrost’s Kings” could be one, another could be the “YAFGC Time Line of Wizards through History”.
I’m quite ambitious about all this. Just have to find time and motivation to start working on it. Anyone feel like paying me full-time wages to stay home and draw this shit out?
Sounds like a Kickstarter. ?
Sounds like periodic kickstarter fodder once you decide you are semi-retired at least. š
Oh wait, I think I see what you’re saying. Something like this:
This is a painting I did for Hilary back in 2001 (5 years before YAFGC). It’s a scene from the “Further Legends of Falania” campaign I ran for several years before we moved out of Quebec.
In it you can see Ch’Thier’s Celestial Tomb nestled on the clouds.
In the crowd of observers are, from left to right,
Hogga Hobgoblin (In the D&D campaign she was an NPC Hobgoblin slave who they adopted and cared for as part of their group),
Prince Tambid of Umbril (NPC),
Roberta the Halfling Rogue (A PC, the player occasionally comments here),
Vanessa the Priestess of Ch’Thier (Hilary’s PC),
Anna the NPC daughter of Saidra (and the “Legends” MacGuffin, it was the party’s job to protect her and keep her from the Rannites),
Glisterbough, the last of the Elves, NPC and guardian of the Celestial Tomb. He was generally considered a bit silly and he became ‘Glitterbranch’ in YAFGC,
and finally
Stonefoot the Dwarf, PC fighter who was harboring a crush on Roberta.
Is this sort of thing of interest? Because I’ve got piles of it.
oooh… the suspense…
Most definitely interested!! Maybe it could be presented in a "Bard’s Tale" format?
What he said. ?
> Is this sort of thing of interest? Because Iāve got piles of it.
Yes.
Furthermore, yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes. Also: Hell yes.
You have a billion standing offers to help with such, of course, but please count me emphatically among them. I would absolutely *love* to help build a public-consumption version of any of the "Silmarillion" material, in whatever form you’d want it to take. Free work offer, standing and ongoing!
> in whatever form youād want it to take.
Write the musical.
t!
If I could pay for Heather Dale and Ben to write and perform YAFGC the musical, I’d have done it ages ago!!
We were at a convention in Detroit together once and I was joking with Ben. I said “I’d love you guys to record a theme for YAFGC sometime.” And Ben looked me dead in the eye and said “You write it, we’ll play it.”
I’ve wished ever since that I could write music.
Is that what prompted your music contest 10+ years ago?
t!
No no. It was much more recent than that. The song contest was a follow up to the Halloween costume contest. We came up with the theme about the same time as I came up with the story idea.
Sadly, for the Hallween costume contest, nobody sent us photos of themselves dressed as Nike. š
I’m willing to help too
I’d love to hear more about the D&D games you played that inspired the characters and stories in YAFGC. If you start a Patreon to help support you in that effort, I’ll gladly sign up for it.
Wow! Lot to unpack here:
1. Yes! That is definitely the sort of thing I was hoping to see
2. As far as format goes, it would be nice to see it collected somewhere. My question was kind of inspired by Gary Larson’s Pre-History of the Far Side. There’s a lot of your thoughts on process and history scattered in comments like this through the site (and I assume forums too) but it would be cool to have some of the highlights collected in maybe a blog or added page on the site.
3. Perhaps some discussions with other player characters from this campaigns would be fun to read
4. I know I for one would happily pay into a patreon for this kind of posting if you were so inclined
5. Obviously this is what you should be doing in your spare time between work, writing the comic, drawing the comic, maintaining the site for the comic, having a family, having friends… ?
6. I had always assumed you had to have some sort of "Silmarillion" like trove to help you keep the written story organized. Glad to know some of the mega fans have access to it too. I’d be afraid to read it and spoil things in the lore like this comic, but it seems like you still surprised everyone!
7. The sketched style of the comic is for practical reason. I know. But I’ve always enjoyed it. Still…. seeing some of your work fully painted out is awesome! Thank you for sharing!
Expectations–SUBVERTED.
Once again–did *not* see this coming. Could not even have *predicted* this coming.
I don’t know if computers *exist* that could calculate my negative batting average by this point… š
Is it awesome?
Damn straight it is!
(*applause*)
Take a bow, Rich. Or an inclination. Or however a spherical being with no feet and innate levitation accepts praise, for your alter ego.
Well played.
An axis-tilt? Heheh, thank you MDF! Glad you’re en joying it! š
Or you could just, you know… bob.
Ok, I’ll show myself out.
(Thanks for all the <s>fish</s>entertainment.)
You’re welcome!
And, while Pratchett references have been made–has Ranna ever considered selling milk as a sideline?
(Not a "Small Gods" reference, obviously.)
Not having read the book in question, I’m going to assume that’s not a reference to her bust size.
Thief of Time
I think unlike the 5th Horseman she lacks the ability to travel through time. And a herd of yaks.
Bahahaha! Would that make Rich a history monk??
Rich- Thief of Time is the last book in the Death series by Terry Pratchett, and incarnations are a focal point. I don’t want to give away any spoilers to anyone who hasn’t read this thoughtful, hilarious book. (Can you tell I’m a fan? Lol)
Appreciate the further additions, Berpol and P!neapple.
And my apologies, Rich–you are correct in your assumption. My apologies for not considering how that *could* have been perceived by the casual comment reader.
It’s hard–wanting to drop a reference, but not wanting to spoil anything, overexplain, or inadvertently make a person feel bad for not getting it.
To say nothing of making yourself look like a fool for assuming too much. š
But yes, Rich–Thief of Time is a definite should-read.
I’m going to miss seeing Lady Marion at Pen this year.
Maybe there’s a way to work Pennsic into the storyline some day? They’ve already had a Crown Tournament!
Hahah, I dunno…my SCA experiences haven’t ended well generally.
Okay, if she’s their aunt, who is HER mother??
I need to know the details of this pantheon, dammit!
Then hold on to your underpants! Flashback to History coming up.
I, officially, did not see that coming.
In retrospect, it was a bit of an oversight of the leaders of the rebellion against Rana to have not consulted the uberbard.
This reminds me of one great dilemma of gamemastering I read when I started in rol. Is better to have the monsters being always "evil" and thus morally ok to kill? Or having realistic enemies to which you fight because every character strive to survive even if they are no "evil"?
Is harder to make things realistic, but I think is worth when you want to tell an interesting story. I like more a good antagonist than a good protagonist. Forgetting the motivations of one side of a strife, and the moral dillemas of the other is losing potential. Of course, this is not mandatory to make a good work (LotR for example).
For more light hearted stories like a door-kicking story of loot-hungry adventurers (whom I prefer not to refer to as good) or a humoristic story in which the rule of cool is more important that consistency, is still a very solid choice because thinking too much of logic here can distract of the fun. The story is non important or non existing, the point is in the narrative like exciting fights, funny jokes or incredible scenarios.
I still preffer stories in which there is no good or evil but characters striving for his own life, welfare or aspirations. For me hitting a "evil" guy because is "evil" is not good, is other kind of evil.
In book / comics story, the realistic enemies are much more interesting. However, in case of gamemastering, this causes serious problem: the way most adventurers behave, THEY may easily end up evil … and players might not like that.
On the other hand, sometimes hitting a guy is only way even if he’s not really evil. Sure, you should try diplomacy first, but diplomacy needs two sides: if one side is not serious about it, you get into the "kill or be killed" territory – and no matter what some Christians say, letting yourself be killed is rarely usable solution. And looking into history, violence solved FAR more problems than diplomacy … except, obviously, the problem of ending the violence.
Practical answer, however? Same as lot of gamemastering dilemmas: you need to ask the group what would they like. And split it if they are unable to agree on one. The goal is to have fun, and forcing someone to play a game they don’t like is not fun.
That’s part of my DMing style. I’d thrust the players into a morally ambiguous situation and they’d just have to deal with it. We’d often have long and fascinating converations about how they felt about the decisions they’d made and the things they’d done.
This is awesome. I was a tiny, tiny bit worried that you’d be going the other way, until I remembered the Guardians and… well, everything you’ve written really, I just kind of expect D&D authors to be hung up on The Balance. Thank you for subverting my expectations!
(The entire Dragonlance pantheon needs to be heavily restrained and have Marion lecture at them through surround sound speakers turned up to 11 for as long as it takes.)
For some reason, reminded me of Warhammer franchise.
Where the Chaos god represents good as well as evil, well mostly evil by the game’s timeline (More so in Fantasy since kindly deities are still a thing in that universe…even after the universe blew up and replaced with gold marines.)
Nurgle as God of Disease and Decay, but also Life and Happiness.
Khorne as God of Conflict, be it a plundering of a village or an honorable duel.
Tzeentch as God of Treachery but also Intellect, like you can be a heroic person who uses traps and deception against a villain.
Slaanesh as God/Goddess of Debauchery and Decadence but also Love and Art.
On the order, Imperium of Men is a theocratic empire that endorses genocide (though for good reasons if you remember that Orks and Tyranids are a thing) and unquestionable obedience that sometimes causes people to join Chaos due to said environment. Also the fact that even Emperor of Mankind’s goal also include erasing emotions to get rid of Chaos and that kinda did more damage than good.
Also curious, but are gods prone to be senile by the way since Ranna seems to forgot her role…probably quite a lot.
Memory might work differently for those who live very long lives. Maybe they remember and forget things in long, slow cycles, retaining only a few key lessons that become the core of their evolving identities…and somewhere along the way, Ranna and Ch’their retained the wrong ones.
I love this so much. This too, is why I read this comic religiously.
Oh, wow! CALLED IT! TOTALLY CALLED IT!
I love this. Especially in light of how the "evil" creatures have actually been fairly civilized in actual practice (especially when the negative influences. like Kila and Lolth, are removed from the picture), to the point that they’re quite indistinguishable from the "good" creatures to a large extent.
Now I want to see them work to rebuild, without the fantasy racism. I want to see their world advance, until that time travelling car thing is no longer an anachronism! š
Just putting this out there, since you asked if anyone would be willing to pay you a full time wage to work on this.
I heartily encourage you to start a Patreon for YAFGC. I for one would throw money at it.
Who’s with me?
I’m a retiree with little to spare these days, but hell yes, I’d contribute to a Rich Patreon, YAFGC or otherwise!
I like this, I was talking on another post (about Wizards decision on the Drow, which I don’t find terrible and honestly just making what was already standard in D&D official) about how I like to play with alignment.
Generally players don’t notice the difference. Chaos is following ones own nature, and Lawful is following the nature of the group we belong to. Good is doing something for the better of others, and Evil is doing something selfishly for oneself. But none of them are guaranteed to be more harmful than the other.
The other important thing is that all alignments are relative. That is what is the nature of society at large depends a lot on who is judging. So while following ones social rituals and processes as accorded by tradition could be seen as lawful, but to someone from outside it could be seen as barbaric and chaotic. In one town a person who takes everyone’s leftover seeds to replant them and grow food could be seen as good and selfless (taking all the work on themselves) but in another as selfish and evil (taking on the wealth of the town for themselves, instead of letting everyone grow their own food).
So spells like detect evil reflect the morality of either the god for clerical spells, or the caster for arcane. Artifacts and others may reflect the morality of their creators, or may gain their own. And members of a civilization are aligned (internally) according to that civilization.
So we could have an "evil chaotic" drow civilization. As evil it looks for the best of its own civilization, as chaotic is considers itself to be the way to be on other civilizations and doesn’t like compromise, choosing to either be disconnected or to impose its will on others (the last one makes more sense for evil). This model is itself only when compared to how civilizations interact, it’s neither more or less harmful than other civilizations (a lawful good civilization could cause huge harm in its extreme punishments of wrongdoing).
So when a paladin casts "smite evil" it works against anything that is evil in the moral framework of the god, when a wizard casts protection from evil it protects them against things that are evil in the caster’s moral framework. When a character identifies themselves as a alignment, that itself means they prefer to act in a way consistent with that alignment in their own moral framework. So a character can choose to be evil, in that they choose to do things that they know are selfish but they believe this is the "right" (not good) thing to do.
Even Lady Mario here, would be showing her own view of law and chaos and more nuanced and complex one, but still a point of view. But we could have a view of entropy as law and its opposite as order, and it would be a valid interpretation, and yet something that goes against the moral framework of all characters in this strip. But I still like it because it doesn’t try to make everything black and white, it lets shades, and some colors seep in, just for kicks.
This isn’t to say that there isn’t ethics in this view, and absolutism is a thing. But something being right or wrong is not defined by the alignment, and something being harmful or helpfull is independent of the alignment. The alignment is what we interpret it to be, our opinion. The hard facts are left to each person to decide.
Most of the time, there’s no difference from playing with the static alignment. It’s convenient that the moral framework of the party reflects that of players, which is contemporary, western, and from a "well-off" socio-economic status. And the books happen to come from a very similar framework. So there isn’t much to fight. But as civilizations show different attitudes to things, such as animal life, worker’s rights, attitudes around disasters like famine, we can start to see. And if players happen to make characters from interesting moral frameworks, they will be exposed to this.
Very well typed out
It’s similar to the whole ‘Holy’ vs ‘UnHoly’ thing: there isn’t, really, such a thing as ‘Unholy’, just because they are an ‘Evil’ God doesn’t make them, or their powers, un-Holy
Just look at Loki and Hades, and even Hela and Set/Seth
One good thing about players playing a character of different alignments, is to allow them (hopefully) to see things from a different perspective. Doesn’t mean they will suddenly change *their* whole point of view, but it might give them a better understanding of someone *elses*
Having met Heather Dale and Ben at Fencon a few years ago (I’m on staff) makes every comic with their alter-egos in it that much cooler. Ben was very gracious when the first thing I said to him was "I thought you’d be shorter", and he knew *exactly* what I meant. Good people, both of them. We loved having them at the con, and I very much enjoyed their concert.
And I can’t wait to see how this new info plays out. There’s a reason I’ve been reading all this time…. š
This was totally unexpected, yet it fits so perfectly. That Lady Marion not only has to explain it to the two "kids," but also turns out to be their mother’s older sister works so well. Ranna, Ch’thier listen to your sister!
Also, instead of working against each other, work with each other. Develop an act and take it on the road for awhile. Call yourselves the Smothers Sisters. Here’s some material for your first act. It needs a bit of editing, but it’ll work. https://youtu.be/PfgrREmy68A š
Argh! That was supposed to be, "Ranna, Ch’thier, listen to your aunt!"
These things happen.
It’s things like this that make me love this comic.
Impressive! I don’t think anyone called this, and it is… perfect. That is some deep philosophy there, and ripping away the blinders to reveal stark reality. I LOVE that she has just been wandering around this whole time, no stomping around in giant form, or lording it over others, just gently influencing the world for the better.
has no-one else spotted the typo ?
You mean the choas?
"Hey, t!, I’m running a D&D campaign. You in?"
"Are you using Alignment?"
"Um… "
"You’re not, right?"
"No, I guess not."
"Good. I’m in."
t!
None of my DMs ever used it either, or tracked it, with the very rare exceptions of a player’s choice to affect the storyline. I did appreciate that it was the first time I’d ever known chaos and order to be on a different spectrum than good and evil.
I /do/ use it as an RP guide (mostly for NPCs) and to determine if certain magic items will have an effect. But I’ve never forced my players to abide by it. Not that I can remember anyway.
Yeah, that was the extent my DMs would use it, and sometimes as a very basic jumping off point for beginning to develop a character.
This set of discussions reminds me of the philospher who said there is no real evil, that a culture’s definition of evil is based on what is considered good by whoever conquered them. Can’t recall which philospher… I want to say Nietzsche or Kant…
Kant remember, eh?
YAAAASSSS!!!! š š š š :D. Totally out of left field — you’re the best, Rich!!!!
Heya Ms. Dale —
Great to see you here, and nice job talking sense to those two crazy kids!
EEEE Heather!! Love you guys! You are also the best!
Regardless of whether or not Ranna is a goddess of cruelty, evil, or just chaos, she has caused untold suffering and pain to countless innocents. There must still be retribution for that and she must be held to account for that.
I love all the confused faces in the background. So many species, so many factions, all united in one thought: "What the hell?"
And they’ve stopped fighting for long enough to hear out this new development, which is good…but I can’t imagine the calm will last. From what we’ve glimpsed of the future, SOMETHING big happens here to change the status quo high-fantasy stasis for good.
I’m looking at the grid lines in the background and all I can think of is, "You sunk my paladin!"
Can’t get rid of the image of that knight on the far right in the last panel as having two tiny eyes and a huge smile š
Cover the visor hole and see what I mean š (in case you can’t, their chin looks like a mouth)
The other question is, of course, if that’s who Heather is, who/what is Ben?
Her Jiminy?
damn the last 4 panels are mostly to blurry to make out.
Really? It all looks the same quality to me.
what ever glitch it was fixed itself
Xtifr- Agreed in both that pterry was influenced by Leiber and that the idea predates his work. I’ve read other stories that utilize the idea. It’s one of the many reasons I investigate influences of creators/adapters that I enjoy- to consider their interpretations and originality, and to find new media to learn from and/or devour. And pterry has sooo many references and suggestions!! (Iloved his interpretation of the duo btw)
Since I didn't see anyone else mentioning it, this explains it better how she made that old song in https://www.yafgc.net/comic/1926-oh-that-old-thing/ š
That… what? Ch'Thier and Ranna were born as dark-skinned humans, weren't they? Their mother was the sister of a light-skinned elf? I'm guessing adopted? Or maybe she isn't actually an elf after all, she just appears as one.
I do not understand. The pieces of this puzzle do not fit each other. If Marion has explained this to the sisters many times before, why are they reacting like they both hear this for the first time? Why do they not remember her? If a short conversation is all it takes to set this right, why has Marion not done this earlier?
The only explanation I see so far that does fit is that Lady Marion is actually lying – she isn't their aunt – she is just an incredibly clever and audacious mortal elf, who spent a long time studying the nature of the gods and figured out a way to alter them on a fundamental level.
Because there two goddesses are overwhelmed by the spiritual demands\beliefs of their followers. So each time it's been explained, it sets the balance on an even keel for a while. But the people, including the clergy, who either aren't around to hear the explanation or chose to ignore it, eventually wear away at Ranna and Ch'Thier's ability to be what they were born to be. At least, that's my understanding.