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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 10:47 pm 
Kobold
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For my part, I enjoyed the episode thoroughly. Sure, there were flaws... much of Russell's work is flawed. But the thing about him is, when he gets something really right then the right parts tend to outshine what went wrong. So I'll remember this episode, like many others, for the parts that I had the most fun watching. It was poignant and touching and profound in the smallest moments, and after the dust had settled it can honestly be said that the Doctor saved the day, in the most unexpected ways possible. For those who didn't enjoy it so much, I certainly can't blame you... but have you tried watching it a second time? I've heard that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:46 am 
Kobold
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Oh, don't get me wrong! Saturday was one of the best days of my life, as sad as it might be to say it. Went back to town, met up with some friends, saw wall-E, found some awesome value village finds (singing in the rain!!!!), and after ALL THIS, still has Doctor Who to look forward to. And jelly babies specially brought back for me from england by a friend.

My friends and I all really enjoyed the episode, but there are always a few things that just don't jive. Mainly that towing bit at the end. I'm sure they could have thought of something else that would have worked... Or why was the Earth left back at all? Oh! So we could see all six of them flying the TARDIS, of course.

We could've had that by having to escape the Medusa cascade because of oh... Some cascading explosion. Maybe.

So, in closing... I enjoyed it. I did like seeing all the different characters, though perhaps we could have used a slightly longer running time so the Torchwood guys could have done something, instead of being stuck inside a time lock.

oh! And Dalek Caan. Does anyone remember if the Daleks needed to be in their shells to survive, or merely for protection? If it was just for protection, then I think the reason we don't see more just hangin' out is that a shell less Dalek can't take over the world. Most therefor would not stay helpless as Caan did, but he was so crazy I don't think he could have controlled a shell at all. Or cared to destroy stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:28 pm 
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wulfae wrote:
oh! And Dalek Caan. Does anyone remember if the Daleks needed to be in their shells to survive, or merely for protection? If it was just for protection, then I think the reason we don't see more just hangin' out is that a shell less Dalek can't take over the world. Most therefor would not stay helpless as Caan did, but he was so crazy I don't think he could have controlled a shell at all. Or cared to destroy stuff.


The Dalek shell (or Mark V Travel Machine) is modeled and designed after Davros own MVTM, it keeps the blobby Dalek body alive since they cannot survive on their own.
Perhaps a quick explanation of what exactly is going on there.

The planet Skaro was populated by two humanoid species, the Kaleds and the Thals, who for some reason they'd long ago forgotten were at war.
Davros noted that his own people, the Kaleds (and their enemies the Thals, for that matter) were mutating because of all the radiation and pollution from the war. He wanted to see what their ultimate final form would be, so he took some tissue samples and excelerated through the mutations. The final form was this.. sort of jelly like blob that couldn't survive on its own. Appalled that that would be the legacy of the Kaleds (and by now, quite quite mad after the accident that forced him to design his own life support system), he manipulated the genetics of his little mutants, getting rid of useless weaknesses like compossion, emphasized their belief in their own superiority, and mass produced them. He called them Daleks, since they were no longer really Kaleds anymore, but, he believed, the next and final evolutionary step.
He assumed they would be his loyal subjects and would take over the universe placing him in charge. But he bred their superiority complex so well that they didn't recognize him as a Dalek, and therefore concluded that he was inferior. They exterminated him (except that the 4th Doctor accidently made it possible for him to save himself somehow) and installed their own supreme leader, They wiped out the Kaleds, taking over the city as their own and waged continuing war on the Thals, who mutated and mutated and mutated until they went full circle and became beautiful perfect humanoids again.

The Daleks launched an expansionist faction into space to start conquering the universe as per their genetic programming.

The ones on Skaro discovered that they couldn't exist in a nice clean atmosphere anymore, so they decided to pollute the atmosphere with another bomb. The 1st Doctor stopped them and the Thals defeated the Daleks in the city.

....and so on and so on.....

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:21 pm 
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Hey. Did you guys hear? Numbers are in. The Stolen Earth and Journey's End are officially the most successful episodes of Doctor Who ever. How about that!

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Heather wrote:
Here I was, all fresh from seeing the episode and excited about how much fantastic stuff was in it, and all I get is moan, bitch, complain. C'mon people, you can't tell me that you all sat there totally dry-eyed through the whole thing and didn't once feel excited or scared or apprehensive or curious or melancholoy or amazed or gob-smacked. <snip>

But no, all I see is Rose this, and Donna that, and two 10's the other. Gee, if you all hate the show so much, why do you bother to watch it?


Hi. I hope you have taken some time to maybe take a breath or two.

Fans disagree on things. It happens. Learn that not everyone is going to like something you do, and that will make your enjoyment that much easier.

And Criticism does not mean hate. You criticize something when you see something has the potential to be good, and you want to make it better.

I think the only reason any negative feedback happens on episodes like this is in fact because people do LOVE the show so much. So when they perceive something hurtful or nonsensical, they're going to get all the more upset about it. People don't get livid over something they don't care about.

Note that one of the people who posted a lot of criticisms (along with praise) of the episode is the fella that makes the comic that we've come here to discuss. Do you really think he hates Doctor Who? Do you really think he's not a fan, and has painstakingly drawn 114 or so comics based on it just to torture himself?

I wish I had the same response to "Journey's End" you did. I really, really do. I wish I could say I enjoyed the ride all the way through; I wish I could think of the episode and feel nothing but a rush. Certainly there are other episodes of Doctor Who that I feel that way about--many, many, over the shows's long history. That's why I'm a fan after all. But unfortunately for me personally, "Journey's End" doesn't represent a good Doctor Who episode for me. I can say there certainly were moments I laughed at, and others I shouted "yay!" at. I didn't cry, though. Sorry about that, that's just the way I'm wired. And unfortunately, I felt nauseous through the ending scene with Rose. And the ending bit with Donna left me so lividly furious I still can't even think about re-watching the episode again, despite some earlier thrills felt. But that's me. That's because of the characters I identify with, and the kind of stories I like, and your favorite characters and stories are probably quite different than mine.

I'm glad you liked the episode (and of course you are not alone) but that doesn't give you the right to insult and blast people who had a different opinion. You liked it? Post your own review, tell us the parts that made you feel so happy--prove to us why it was so good in your eyes. But personal attacks aren't going to help convince anyone that you are right. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:59 pm 
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Rich/BeholderKing- wasnt it two peoples of the same species having a war on Skaros? It seemed to be one of those useless wars that people of the same species often have with one another, over terratory, some belief system, that little difference that is all the more infuriating because the two peoples are so much alike.

It was when Davros tinkered with the DNA of Kaled residents and created Daleks that we got two different species. The Thals were welcoming any surviving Kaleds as one of their own - or at least that was their post war stratedgy, pre their own city being whomped on.

So we had the Daleks from Davros experiment, and any suriviving Kaleds and Thals continuing along their humanoid evolution, all calling themselves Thals at that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:23 pm 
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Uh, yeah. That's actually what I mean.
The Kaleds and the Thals were actually the same race, but two 'peoples'. The FASA game filled in the gap by saying that there was a cataclysm way back in their early days that split the land in two. The survivors on each side adopted a legend that stated that the ones from the other side didn't survive. Thus when they met up again, many years later they assumed the others were demons from beyond. Ironically in their own languages, both Kaled and Thal means "chosen people".

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Ah. Sort of like a war over spelling. "It's an N!" *crash!bang!oozi-ratta-tat-tats*"It's a Q!"
(stolen without apology from Robin Williams)

The towing I didn't have an issue with- I didn't think they were actually physically towing straight thru space like a camper tow out of a solar system, but thru time and space, to take it across the universe in what was probably a couple hours. I suppose if they had added the typical time-vortex sfx around the Earth and Tardis, that would have been clearer to the audience, but they couldnt have meant anything else to have happened since it didnt take them centuries to cross those thousands of lightyears (if not millions of lightyears) I suppose they were having too much fun with the majestic view of Earth on the move to take care of it, but I think it would have been really cool (taking the time this afternoon to think about it) to have had the entire Earth hearing the sound of take-off before the music of the journey started, and to hear it land with the end. Tho then they'd have had to explain the moon better, with the fx they had, they looked the Doctor swung in to grab the moon and snatched it as the Earth settled. They'd have had to have some comment of the Doctor landing the moon at the same time to make it work if they showed the landing effect as materialize.

But, difference of fx used aside, I didnt have an issue with it happening since I figured it was the Tardis's time and flight ability (and it probably is at least as large as the planet on the inside) protecting and sheltering the Earth for a brief journey thru the timespace to where it belonged.

Still it was interesting the Tennant is now the 10th and 11th Doctor - he used up a regeneration for this- he may have spun the energy out to the hand after healing himself, but there is no denying the regeneration was used. So now he's just got the 12th and 13th left. He's got to learn to be more careful!

(and yes, my thoughts were when the regenerations started was that he'd split up into his former selves- we'd see Chris, Paul, Sylvester, and who knows who else appear... after all, it would have been the reunion of EVERYBODY that they promised :biggrin: ..besides, that whole gold glowy sfx shooting out dangerous energy only made sense to me for the 9th's Doctors because he was being killed by gold glowy energy he absorbed from Rose..he'd saved her, but realized too late, not himself, from being burnt out by the vortex. So he died, burning up like Rose had been about to, but regenerating at the same time, giving us David, and exess energy bursts that lured in those Santa robots and Ziggerat-whatevers..seeing the Master regenerate like that raised my eyebrows- we've seen tons of regeneration and they just get glowy, change (more spectacular changing in the 8th's) and tend to collapse. Why the heck would he be shooting forth the same energy effects from the heart of the tardis? Because that's how they did the very last time and didnt bother to think out why? If they were doing it again, I wanted to see the 9th Doctor come back- I mean if you die from having the entire energy of the space time vortex running thru your system...wouldnt that mean you were split thru space and time? Might not some freak occurance bring you back? Like you being in the same tardis and near the same source with a piece of you doing who knows what? )


Last edited by M'reen on Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:23 am 
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In the show he states that he managed to heal his body rather than regenerate, so he's still only the 10th Doctor.

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:16 pm 
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In the general discussion thread, Mitchell wrote:

Quote:
I seem to be going off-topic - or rather, what I was gonna talk about this time: the season finale. I did enjoy it, but first a couple of caveats:
(1) Given the scale of the previous finales, how can you top yanking the Earth out of its orbit and then towing it back? Upping the ante on the Cybermen/Dalek war in Series Two and the Master's domination of the world in Series Three took serious chutzpah on RTD's part, and I'm not surprised by his decision to leave. Poor boy's exhausted, doncha know. In retrospect, it's a good thing that the Beeb is letting the series take a breather with four specials rather than cranking out a new season.
(2) Donna's fate, IMHO, is a screwjob of the first order :teeth: . Only the notion of Superman flying around the world fast enough to reverse time rankles me more. :grr:
(3) Why carry around Implements of Mass Destruction (the Osterhagen Key, for example) if they're just going to be discarded like gumwrappers? And Doctor 10 Mk 2 and DoctorDonna running headlong into consecutive Davros zaps? Puh-and-leeeeese.
Overall, there was more to cheer for than crab about :cheerleader: .
(1) Mickey and Jackie coming to Sarah Jane's rescue (Jackie packing serious high-tech heat - like daughter, like mother).
(2) The nebulous nature of Davros' standing with "his" Daleks - at least that's how I think of it.
(3) The hilarious paranoid insanity of the Reality Bomb Plot. Nice of the Daleks to come up with something that suits their nature.
(4) Davros and Sarah Jane get reacquainted. "Really, Ms. Smith, we should sit down to tea and biscuits, but I've got to go EX-TER-MI-NATE everything first. Give me a call next week and...oh, sorry, you won't be here."
(5) The DoctorDonna - neatly done.
(6) Doctor 10 Mk 2 - it's always good to carry a spare.
(7) The Doctor turns the tables on his enemies - AGAIN! - but not without consequences. Back in Genesis of the Daleks, he pondered the question of genocide. This time, he answered it, and no doubt the result is going to stay with him for a while.
(8) Our happy band pilot the TARDIS with the Earth in tow - one of the more joyous images in science fiction of note.
(9) K-9 pops up! :clap: Now let's hope someone decides to get the legalese sorted so he can be a regular on The Sarah Jane Adventures (awesome spin-off, by the by).
(10) Goodbyes are sad occasions, but they can be especially touching (Pretty Lady on Terminus comes to mind). It's nice to see the Doctor and his secret family achieve closure (even though I thought Donna got the shaft). :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 4:15 pm 
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Thank you for correcting a major league faux pas on my part :oops: .

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Yeah, I'm already hoping S Moffet takes care of Donna, in a season or two, by having an emergency where something happens that makes Donna remember. Doctor/Donna can save the day one last time, and then she'd burn up...but that's got to be better to burn up as Doctor Donna than to be mindwiped back to someone so small that that her height of excitement is a new flavor of Pringles (to quote her fiance).

Maybe her timelord DNA introduced in her will make her regenerate into a new Donna ...Catherine Tate's character is so fantastic, it could be allowed to live a little beyond her. (Maybe not more than one or two regenerations, but it would be fun to see the Doctor's face if it happened even once.)

While I really want this, the unlikelyhood of it is shown in the Library two-parter. Everyone else had a fantastic Donna and Doctor partnership - even the Donna-lite ep when you see how helpless the Doctor is without her in Midnight- but Mr Moffet had her shown as a bit of whiner that didn't grasp the obvious all that fast, and that the Doctor was deliberately humiliating and decieving to shut her up.

Donna solved mysteries about relationships quicker than the Doctor in the other adventures, usually being the one to lead him to the conclusions, and she was no slouch about solving mysteries and problems that didn't depend on science, revealing a head for math and a mind capable of sifting thru the beaurocracy to grasp the crucial information revealed or hidden in the red tape jungles and brochures.

But in the Library, she seeks out no exploring or traveling adventures, but simply a marriage with adoring husband and kids. Which is fine- even the Doctor secretly longs for such a life, and it was Doctor Moon's method of keeping everyone distracted and calm and not realizing they were trapped in a virtual reality that had it's memory straining at the seams. But it just wasnt the Donna of the rest of the season. It was the jilted bride of the Christmas special, before she saw the grand finale and decided to change her view on life. Mr Moffet either wasnt made aware of how much she'd learned by the end of that advenure, and she'd stayed grown between seasons - or he simply doesnt see her as more than that now, so didnt write her that way.

If he really sees her as always that way, then seeing her returned to that at the end of the season is no big deal for him, and he'll be happy to leave her prattling on about gossip and tabloids and managing to miss any and every big event that lands in front of her.
:crackup:
In which case no rescue or heroic death.... which is too bad. I'd really rather Donna be killed off (heroically) as a whole person than to live as only a portion of who she is.


Last edited by M'reen on Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:46 pm 
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M'reen wrote:
Yeah, I'm already hoping S Moffet takes care of Donna, in a season or two, by having an emergency where something happens that makes Donna remember. Doctor/Donna can save the day one last time, and then she'd burn up...but that's got to be better to burn up as Doctor Donna than to be mindwiped back to someone so small that that her height of excitement is a new flavor of Pringles (to quote her fiance).

Maybe her timelord DNA introduced in her will make her regenerate into a new Donna ...Catherine Tate's character is so fantastic, it could be allowed to live a little beyond her. (Maybe not more than one or two regenerations, but it would be fun to see the Doctor's face if it happened even once.)

While I really want this, the unlikelyhood of it is shown in the Library two-parter. Everyone else had a fantastic Donna and Doctor partnership - even when you see how helpless the Doctor is without her in Midnight- but Mr Moffet had her shown as a bit of whiner that didn't grasp the obvious all that fast and that the Doctor was deliberately humiliating and decieving to shut her up.

Donna solved mysteries about relationships quicker than the Doctor in the other adventures, usually being the one to lead him to the conclusions, and she was no slouch about solving mysteries and problems that didn't depend on science, revealing a head for math and a mind capable of sifting thru the beaurocracy to grasp the crucial information revealed or hidden in the red tape jungles and brochures.

But in the Library, she seeks out no exploring or traveling adventures, but simply a marriage with adoring husband and kids. Which is fine- even the Doctor secretly longs for such a life, and it was Doctor Moon's method of keeping everyone distracted and calm and not realizing they were trapped in a virtual reality that had it's memory straining at the seams. But it just wasnt the Donna of the rest of the season. It was the jilted bride of the Christmas special, before she saw the grand finale and decided to change her view on life. Mr Moffet either wasnt made aware of how much she'd learned by the end of that advenure, and she'd stayed grown between seasons - or he simply doesnt see her as more than that now, so didnt write her that way.

If he really sees her as always that way, then seeing her returned to that at the end of the season is no big deal for him, and he'll be happy to leave her prattling on about gossip and tabloids and managing to miss any and every big event that lands in front of her.
:crackup:
In which case no rescue or heroic death.... which is too bad. I'd really rather Donna be killed off (heroically) as a whole person than to live as only a portion of who she is.


Precisely :oops: :frogwink: .

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:01 pm 
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Just a couple of random thoughts that couldn't quite go elsewhere on the forum :dizzy: :

(1) Have you ever wondered just where Davros' left hand is?

(2) Anytime Captain Jack salutes, I think of Fred Scuttle.

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 Post subject: Re: Finale Discussion: Stolen Earth/Journey's End SPOILERS
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:08 pm 
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Davros' hand is on Necros, where it was shot off.

Though why he couldn't genetically clone himself another one...?

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